Originally by: CCP Nozh

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Death to small roaming gangs

- Small roaming gangs existed long before polycarbon engine housings and snake sets. Sure we're reducing the maximum speed achievable but you'll still be able to go a lot faster than a standard MWD fit with various speed mods.

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Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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FINALLY, NERF THOSE LUDICROUS IDIOTS INTO THE GROUND!

All hail a new time of variety!

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Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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Edited by: Dungar Loghoth on 25/07/2008 15:23:53

Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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FINALLY, NERF THOSE LUDICROUS IDIOTS INTO THE GROUND!

All hail a new time of variety!

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This is the kind of person that wants nanos nerfed; smart, cunning, adaptable, always on gaurd:

2008.07.21 21:02:00

Victim: Haniblecter Teg
Corp: F.R.E.E. Explorer
Alliance: NONE
Faction: NONE
Destroyed: Gallente Shuttle
System: Sivala
Security: 0.6
Damage Taken: 554

Involved parties:

Name: Lorde Falcao (laid the final blow)
Security: 0.4
Corp: The Illuminati.
Alliance: Pandemic Legion
Faction: NONE
Ship: Nemesis
Weapon: Caldari Navy Cataclysm Cruise Missile
Damage Done: 554

Dropped items:

Gallente Carrier (Cargo)

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http://www.battleclinic.com/eve_online/pk/view/player-Haniblecter+Teg-kills.html

6:1 ratio *****, and I havent posted on that site in years.

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Originally by: Siona Windweaver

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Nearly all nano pilots were convinced they werent overpowered while nearly all small gang activiy in low sec became nanos to counter nanos. It produced less variety since even a person with half a brain can disengage and save his ass if they encounter a counter to their ships.

I'm having extreme pleasure to see those who were saying "ADAPT or go back to wow" started whining after first dev blog that isnt even on TEST servers yet.

Please, cry some more, tears of unfathomable sadness are tasty indeed.

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt.

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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With a few rigs, T2 overdrives and microwarpdrive and some implants, I can easily break 4km/sec with a vagabond. Then you can add gang bonuses, boosters, etc.

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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The speeds that are being nerfed are exactly those huge speeds. Ship travelling in the 2-5km/s or so range won't feel this too badly.

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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If you come back with a thought through and intelligent commentary on these proposals, then we can understand what and why you are making them. 1 line flippant comments are not very helpful.

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Originally by: August Hayek

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Tri and PL are whining, because CCP nerfs their almost invincible nano tactics.

You made my day

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Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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Vagabond:
High: nothing
Med: 10mn microwarpdrive
Low: Overdrive Injector System II x2

Rigs: Auxilliary thrusters II x2

Implants. full snake set.

No special named modules etc.

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Originally by: Sakura Nihil

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So, since I can't get on SISI until that patch deploys, help me out here.

Say a max-skilled Vagabond, with 2 speed rigs and 3 lowslot speed modules. 10MN MWD II, with say the 10% bonus from gangskills and baseline no implants or hardwirings in - what would I get?

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Originally by: Elmicker

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don't worry guys. Last time a developer got this defensive, it was zulupark and the carriers, and we all know how quickly those changes went thr- oh wait.

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Originally by: Dianabolic

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I thought I'd just post my "lol" here.

Man, these comments are priceless.

Priceless, I say.

Good on you CCP.

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Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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Originally by: Kery Syander

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Edited by: Kery Syander on 25/07/2008 16:36:32

Originally by: CCP Dionysus

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This weekend's knee-jerk comments will be taken with a large grain of salt. If you (in general "you") want to do something about these changes, then get on sisi and try out various scenarios and give feedback then :)

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I really don't appreciate well-thought out comments and constructive criticism being classed as 'knee-jerk'. It's actually a fairly disrespectful thing to say to someone who's put years of time into your product and who may very well be more familiar with certain play styles than yourself.

First off, Nozh's argument is extremely poor and he fails to often any sort of reasoning for why small gang warfare (which was already not the most satisfying, fiscally rewarding, or easy play style) will NOT be seriously hampered by these changes. People's ability to avoid blobs and the like which as anyone who has spent an hour in 0.0 in the past 6 months knows. Saying that small gang warfare existed before and implying that this patch won't 'finish it off' is simply idiotic. I used to enjoy CCP for their candor and wit, and now I'm stuck putting up with stupidity and poorly articulated ideas. Please be simple and frank. WHAT EXACTLY IS BEING DONE TO ACTIVELY ENCOURAGE SMALL GANG WARFARE? WHAT INTRODUCED IN THIS PATCH WILL HELP 'FIGHT THE BLOB'?

I hope you'll excuse my complete lack of faith in CCP's ability to promote small gang warfare. The last 'small gang' action introduced in 0.0 was cynojammers and station services, I believe. Both of which require even bigger blobs to deal with. Is there ANYONE at CCP who actually cares about small gang warfare and has done ANY of it in the last 6 months? I implore you to discuss your changes with them as for a large contingent of us, that is why we play this game.

I don't have a problem with a general speed nerf or balancing (especially assault ships) but completely changing the gang v. gang balance of EVE without considering small gang warfare seems idiot. Sit down for 5 minutes and make a good argument why what you're doing will ultimate small gang warfare, and/or what you CAN do to promote it.

Thank you.

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All Im seeing is kneejerk. None of you have tested it yet you're all chiming in. I've only seen one post where the person is "I dont like what Im seeing, but I'll hold off till sisi"

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Originally by: facialimpediment

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You know, after all this discussion about speed in the CCP meeting, what about just axing snakes? Sure seems more prudent to me to screw over 1% of all HAC/inty users rather than screwing over 50% of all HAC/inty users.

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Originally by: Ephemeron

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I speak from a point of view of experienced fighter, specializing in battleships, small scale pvp fights. There are a few points I want to say

1. Nerfing in general is a bad thing. If you feel that there is no other way to fix an important game problem, try to find a solution that involves as little nerfing as possible. I think the currently proposed changes are excessive.

2. EVE works as it is now. You can't deny that EVE is a successful game and that it is not failing because of nanoships. Therefore, it should be in our interest to try be careful with the game design changes and avoid redesigning big parts of the game. The game design currently proposed by Nozh involves too many changes. Why not just make another space game - different game mechanics and all? There are still lots of people who want to play EVE as it is now.

Ok, now to the real issues.

Nozh sets up his arguement based on all the possible speed increasing methods availale in game. All those best modules and implants happen to be rare items. They are officer loot, top complex loot, multibillion isk implants.

Now that we have that fact in mind, lets consider game balance as a whole. From point of view of perfectly balanced PvP system, rare loot has no place in it. Good balance relies on standardized modules, easily accessible modules. That way, the power and performance of ones ships becomes a matter of choosing the right module combination and using the right tactic. It shouldn't be influenced by ability to afford some modules that are clearly better than all other variants.

Simply put, we can't have good balanced system if we allow rare modules to exist. We need to choose, either we have these rare modules, and allow small percentage of people to have unbalanced performance in combat. Or we make all the best modules easily affordable, so everyone has a choice in their setups, and everyone is equal in their ability to fit ships.

What we absolutely should not do, is to take rare and expensive modules as proof of broken balance, and then nerf all the related modules across the board. Alternatively, you can choose to nerf a combination of rare modules, but not a combination of common modules, based on the initial example that consists of purely rare modules.

Lastly, for game balance changes related to speed, we need more solid evidence to base our solutions on. It is not sufficient to give an example of a ship that combines all the rare modules and implants. We need actual statistics, we want analysis of ship kills and losses with respect to the type of modules they are using. We need to make analysis of isk gained and destroyed. It is the minimum that should be done to seriously consider such massive sweeping game changes.

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Originally by: Haniblecter Teg

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Originally by: Whiners

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You Mean Im Going To Have To Commit To Fights???

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Originally by: CCP

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Yap

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Originally by: Lord Testament

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nano nerf is great

and it's about time something happened about this nano madness

@nanonerf whines

adapt or die

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Originally by: Lord EmBra

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Originally by: Areo Hotah

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Edited by: Areo Hotah on 25/07/2008 13:18:08
I am on the receiving end of (AAA) nano-hacs daily.
I have had an invasion of the old TRI in my space.

Observations from me fighting nano gangs:
-nobody takes booster pills
-Claymores are quite rare to see, and tend do die a lot.
-Hardly anyone uses snakes
-There are plenty of ways to kill (part of) a nanogang, without everybody being in a Rapier or Huginn. They bring a specialized ship to do something, so you have to do something specialized to counter them. Nothing wrong with that. No standard gang (some inties, ewar and DPS) should be able to counter 95% of enemy gang types. Eve should be rock-paper-scissors
-I like fighting them. Some people have even begun to count their kills in polycarbs/week.

I think there is nothing wrong with HACs going 3-5km/s.

I think there is nothing wrong with players investing 1Bn isk in snakes and going 8km/s.

I agree there is something wrong that practically every single HAC can go faster than a standard fitted inty.

There is nothing wrong with having speeds that makes you more or less immune to missiles and drones. These offensive weapons take minimal player skill to use (hence their popularity for mission runners), while good players can avoid the damage of turrets, simply by manual piloting (and vice versa, a good player in a turret boat can maximize his damage potential). A better solution would be to have significantly reduced damage, but not 0, for hurling missiles and drones at fast targets.

I think you should never ever nerf warfare links, as they are really a team-based module, and nerfing decreases the incentive to field one is bad. A good nano gang has a Claymore, so they go even faster. So what? Kill the Claymore first.

Nerfing all at once is bad (damps anyone?).
Just start by adjusting the polycarbs to be worse than t2 nanofibers, and modify the 3 "speed" stats (mass, max velocity, agility) into 2, so more stacking penalties get applied.

Making warp scramblers useful is good (maybe do something with warpcore stabs too).

Changing a web from 90% to 60% is a 400% nerf (max speed of webbed target from 10% to 40%); nothing in the history of eve has been nerfed so hard.

Once again, I fear that the Devs are listening too much to whines, without seeing the real problem. I think they should have focussed their time solely on their last "mission statement":
Guerrilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.
Please make more ways to make this possible, than simply nano'ing it up.

Cause:
Skilled players should be better than defending blob in crap ships.
Skilled defenders should be able to beat cookie-cutter setups.

Areo

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Read this CCP!

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Originally by: WidowMaker IX

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haha oh god i am soo happy thanx CCP

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Originally by: fire5tar

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Excellent approach CCP, well thought out, good reasons for doing it, and it looks like it will be well implemented too.

That took guts and effort knowing how the skilless wonders will whine that they can't just spin around the system laughing in local anymore. Not that'll they'll ever admit thats what they are whining about :)

Congrats job well done looking forward to it!

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Originally by: alterist

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Originally by: Zen Tao

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Originally by: Shin Ra

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But its not the only way to fight blobs outnumbered. We have been doing this for years.

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This: BE ( may they die a thousand deaths ) have been using non-standard fits for years with great sucess.

Just because the ultimate cookie cutter fit in the history of eve is now nerfed doesnt mean you can't use small gangs - u just have to use your head first...

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BE do not fight blobs they cloak until it is reduced to a more manageable number and they never jump through gates in a large camp. They are a virtual fixed position unless a route to another system is clear.

That is not to say that there style is not effective against numbers some what greater than their own or that their innovative style does not produce good stats, but against a blob they are not effective in the least.

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Originally by: Tiirae

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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alterist, member, School of Applied Knowledge, 8 days.

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Dungar Loghoth, PL, has never heard of alts. Srsly? An 8 day old character wouldn't even know what BE was ffs.

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Originally by: Selindra Lavaris

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This might be the first time i write here since i don't like forums and i don't like *****ing, that been said...

CCP: Nerf MWD's more please, In my opinion MWD's are meant to get you to and from a battle fast, you aren't supposed to be fighting at MWD speeds, that should be the job of the afterburner... so when you use and MWD you should get something like a 90% penalty to your ships agility, on top of that since you are not suposed to fight with an MWD make make it so that eigther you can't target with it on, or you have no control over you weapon system kinda like when you go it warp since it is a micro WARP drive system. i especialy like the part about the short range scram prevents the use of MWD's doing it this way you could also remove the cap penalty from the MWD...

The rest of you: No point in *****ing at me because i likely whon't read it... if you wanna discuse it contact me ingame where i can block you if you have nothing productive to add to the subject...

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Originally by: Selindra Lavaris

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CCP: Nerf MWD's more please, In my opinion MWD's are meant to get you to and from a battle fast, you aren't supposed to be fighting at MWD speeds

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There are only a couple of nano ships that can engage effectively on mwd, since they dont suffer from tracking: crow, ishtar, curse, cerberus, sacrilege, flycatcher.

All the other ships have to drop speed to put any damage on a target

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Originally by: alterist

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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Originally by: GO MaZ

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Originally by: Selindra Lavaris

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CCP: Nerf MWD's more please, In my opinion MWD's are meant to get you to and from a battle fast, you aren't supposed to be fighting at MWD speeds

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There are only a couple of nano ships that can engage effectively on mwd, since they dont suffer from tracking: crow, ishtar, curse, cerberus, sacrilege, flycatcher.

All the other ships have to drop speed to put any damage on a target

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stop answering the alts gomez

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Dungar Loghoth july 2004 to july 2008 - 331 kills 88 losses

Do you really consider yourself qualified to judge others opinions about pvp?.

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Originally by: Zoraya Rouge

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Yes I'm an alt

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Originally by: Smothered Buffalo

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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Originally by: Zoraya Rouge

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Yes I'm an alt

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why can't you post your opinions with your main?

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maybe because all you have been doing this thread is trying to invalidate others' opinions by displaying how long they have played and how many losses are on a killboard?

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Originally by: Thorradin

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I'm glad to see a change is finally being made to an aspect of the game that is flat out broken. The arguments coming from most of the pro-nano players tend to fall under "Well I put in time training for it" and "It cost me a lot of money", both of which are nothing but pathetic attempts at defending a problem aspect of the game that let them feel skilled in ways they aren't, as skilled players will do just fine, and those who relied on overkill nanos will just die because their overkill is balanced.

I have a question for the 'My snakes cost X billion isk' crowd:

If your 3-4 billion ISK snakes let you be that overpowered, then will you help me argue that rarer, more expensive mods are made godly too? Estamel's invuln goes for an easy 10-15 billion isk.

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Originally by: Smothered Buffalo

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oh, you think ccp will decide if this should be nerfed by counting the number of forum posts?lawl

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Originally by: Agmar

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Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?

/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours

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Originally by: Kyguard

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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Originally by: Agmar

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Not to derail the thread, but a serious question. Has a thread ever gone this many pages within 24 hours?

/me puts the over/under at 78 pages in 24 hours

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How big was the whine thread on your forums when you lost Nebba's titan?

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How big is the whine thread on your forums when you read this blog?

You walked right into it dungar

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Originally by: Kal Zaketh

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much neded change look forward to it

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Originally by: Matrix Skye

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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Poly's are unbalanced and the vast majority of polycarbon legion agree with this statement.

No one has any issue with CCP brining polys in-line with T2 nanos; our contention is that this nerf takes things way too far.

Matrix Skye, member, state war academy, 9 months and 9 days.

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Finally, a decent reply from PL that isn't insulting the whole of Eve! Your arguments are definitely open for debate, but as I said it's too late as all there ever was was the "nerf nano!" and the "don't nerf nanos" camps. And I disagree with your statement that PL disagreed nanos were overpowered. Just in this thread alone I can find a whole lot of your ******ed alliance mates defending their i-wins to death.

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Originally by: Matrix Skye

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Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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I'd like you to find a post from a PL member that says, "Nanos are perfectly balanced as they are".

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if i go searching through all 90+ pages will you admit you were wrong when i find the PL ******ed whines? or will this become a "well, he didn't really mean that he was just angry..."?

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Originally by: Matrix Skye

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Edited by: Matrix Skye on 27/07/2008 17:57:01

Originally by: Dungar Loghoth

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The point of the exercise would have been to make you realize that our posts are arguing to save a style of gameplay, which CCP are effectively removing. As long as speed (which has been around as long as any other play-style and has a race dedicated to using it) remains viable, we won't be upset. But speed is not viable when you need full-grade snakes and "no other special mods" to break 4k.

If CCP brought polys in-line with the rest of speed mods, the only person upset would be Corvac, who couldn't get away with charging us 2x what they cost to build. As it stands now, many of us are upset (and not just PL and TRI) because nanos are not being brought into step with other styles of gameplay; nanoing is being all but removed.

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But we dont know that yet. You're getting ahead of yourself here. CCP has given us the "paper". Now we need to test it out. CCP is only asking for the chance to test it. But you're going all nuts over it. I agree that speed needs to be an alternative and if this nerf destroys it (as you imply it will) then hell, yes it's wrong. The whole point is to bring it in line with other options such as shield and armor, which I suspect you agree. Wait and test it out THEN give feedback. But seriously, person to person, if I can give you one piece of advice it would be to keep the vocal ******ed monkeys from PL from talking. I'd suggest they allow you to speak for them, given that they don't seem capable of holding mature conversations.

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Originally by: Euriti

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Originally by: Stab Wounds

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Originally by: Korinn

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Originally by: Matrix Skye

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yes, apparently it's your buddies that fly them.
that wouldnt have anything to do with you being against the nano nerf would it? naaaah, of course not .

btw, here's one link to your claim that sniggwaffe and compnay dont fly nanos:

Linkage

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Looks like a roaming hac / CMD ship gang there, a couple of vagas for tackling so they'd obviously be quite fast but there is NOTHING there to suggest that any of the other ships are nanoed and it's very likely they aren't.

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almost all those ships are nanoships, wtf are you on?

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Do you know how PL operates?

Obviously not.

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